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Post by IronFeliks on Apr 30, 2005 13:45:20 GMT -5
I am here to defend the lies and slanders circulating on this board about myself and E-G. Give me a chance to defend myself from the claims of CyM and 1949, and ban me after if you wish.
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Post by VirginMolotov on May 1, 2005 8:20:56 GMT -5
Welcome, I suppose.
I guess the big question is obvious - are you a third positionist? Do you defend nazi scum like the NBP? I've browsed E-G a few times, and while the board isn't terrible, there is a fuck of a lot more homophobia, mysogeny, etc. than I'm comfortable with.
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Post by flyby2 on May 1, 2005 11:04:42 GMT -5
Iron Felix:
This message board is really not set up to discuss with anti-semites whether jews run the world.
You have your own message board, which you have mucked up with your spewing about "iron hand" against the people, your hatred of jews, your raw macho male supremacy and your bigoted views on gay people.
If you honestly believe were slandered in our discussions, here is what i suggest: Post a detailed statement of your views on your own message board (E-G).
And we will link to it here, so that people (if they are interested in exploring your self-justifications) can wander over there and read it.
My view is that we really should not open this message board to rather open reactionaries and fascists (even if they "claim" that they are Marxist, or Leninist or whatever.)
We have other things, of much greater importance, to discuss and debate. And (inevitably) a posting by a nazbol like you would simply lead everyone's attention in a skydive down to your muddy bottom plane of racism and fascism.
And i also think that allowing antisemites and anti-gay bigots to post here as members would send the wrong message to all kinds of people -- that they are not valued, that certain verdicts are "not in" amongst us on these issues.
And my suggestion to the moderators is that if you try to divert our discussions here to your nonsense, that such posts here be removed.
And since we want everyone here to have access to issues and information, if you post your "refutation" on E-G we will make that known here (as we have done in the past).
I urge anyone who has a view on this (and certainly a disagreement with my suggestions) to mention it here.
We have not had a discussion in a while over whether to allow Nazis and racists to post here -- but our policy in the past has been to draw the line. And (in my opinion, after reading the threads on E-G, or even your anti-semitic bullshit in your first posts on our site) it is rather clear that you are way over that line.
Anyone else?
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Post by MundoQueGanar on May 1, 2005 13:21:51 GMT -5
I'm with flyby. Fuck that "national bolshevism" horseshit. That has NOTHING to do with the kind of world we're fighting for.
I just got through watching a section of the Avakian sampler cd--the section about imagining a world where oppression is being uprooted, where work is meaningful, where education is about the truth, and where the liberation of all of humanity on our fragile planet is dead-center on the agenda for all of us to work out. There's no way that this nazbol bullshit could lead anywhere other than AWAY from that world.
To the extent it is based in any way on the history of our movement, it seizes on some MISTAKES we've made, amplifies them, and raises them to a level of principle. But mainly it's opportunism that seeks to play on the backwardness that does exist amongst the masses.
I don't think that has any place on this site. I think we'd be better served by doing our criticism of Iron Felix's line here, banning him, and moving on.
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Post by Guest on May 1, 2005 14:38:16 GMT -5
OK so IronFeliks said on EG homosexuals are decadent and need to be reformed.
The question is would IronFeliks have been welcome here before 2001 when RCP "settled" the gay question and now everyone opposes bigotry (just that) against gays?
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Post by not our guest on May 1, 2005 14:56:41 GMT -5
Ah, and now we have someone who hides behind "guest."
And the issue with Iron Felix is not this or that issue (there are many views on this site regarding sexuality, as you can see in those threads.) Iron Felix puts forward an all-sided fascist view (complete with a fascist view of Jewish people, a male supremacist view of women, a line that the masses of people need to be pointed by an iron fist) -- that is the issu here.
And so, comparing the RCP with Iron Felix is just dishonest trolling bullshit.
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Post by hmmm on May 1, 2005 21:30:47 GMT -5
as oppossed to the iron fist like that of bob avakian who you guys seem to think the masses 'need'..LOL
i find it hilarious that a group that only a few years ago proffessed 'homosexual is bourgeois' and who follows a stalinist line is calling iron felix a facist. seems you guys would be allies.. a new stalinist 'united front' if you will..
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Post by whatever on May 1, 2005 22:25:27 GMT -5
The silliness I was pointing to is the RCP (draft) program being used to set the bar for what is acceptable or intended debate here (and at least MundoQueGanar is honest about that).
Not our Guest says people should look at the big picture of IronFelix's views. Fine, so is that anti-gay piece of IronFelix views OK in other circumstances? Is IronFelix's anti-gay ideas only bigoted because IronFelix is fascist? I point out the silliness of this idea and someone says I'm trolling?
The fact not our guest approaches IronFelix by saying let's not get stuck on this or that issue itself shows that IronFelix's "bigoted views of gay people" may not really be reactionary to certain posters here.
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Post by whatever on May 1, 2005 22:33:35 GMT -5
I'll give "not our guest" something to go on. If they want to disprove what I'm saying come up with some quote of IronFelix's showing how his views on gays differ fundamentally with RCP before 2001. Otherwise any talk of IronFelix being bigoted on gays is empty sounding.
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ralph waldo emmerson
Guest
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Post by ralph waldo emmerson on May 2, 2005 0:07:51 GMT -5
I'll give "not our guest" something to go on. If they want to disprove what I'm saying come up with some quote of IronFelix's showing how his views on gays differ fundamentally with RCP before 2001. Otherwise any talk of IronFelix being bigoted on gays is empty sounding. so then it would sound like the rest of the RCP's usuall message?
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Post by whatever on May 2, 2005 0:45:11 GMT -5
To the extent the RCP has moved away from its old position I am not trying to discourage that.
The point is IronFelix's ideas about gays aren't much different than the RCP's a few years ago but suddenly IronFelix is a bigot and opposing the world Avakian has always envisioned. This paints a false picture of the past.
It is patronizing toward gays: something the RCP considered "line struggle" before 2001 is now simply bigotry and all the unrepentant Marxist-Leninists are just bigots end of story. It is a very superficial way of looking at the homosexuality question and does not in any real way depart from identity politics. It just encourages reactionary views of gays to take more subtle forms.
Saying IronFelix's whole nazbol ideology is what makes his views on gays wrong is a silly evasion not even addressing the substance of IronFelix's arguments. Would IronFelix's views on women be OK in other circumstances? No, but Not our guest's approach is to say "don't draw parallels between pieces of IronFelix's views and the party's, just look at the big picture."
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Post by MundoQueGanar on May 2, 2005 2:23:03 GMT -5
The point is IronFelix's ideas about gays aren't much different than the RCP's a few years ago but suddenly IronFelix is a bigot and opposing the world Avakian has always envisioned. This paints a false picture of the past. Look, I don't think you've really investigated this matter, and that you're just trolling. All you've got to do is take one look at any of Iron Felix's posts on the matter of homosexuality and you'll see a bigot on a mission. Here are a few to get started. www.comradeche.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4269&st=0entry38610 www.comradeche.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4470&st=0entry40579www.comradeche.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4269&st=20entry38983The RCP's line was wrong and it has been thoroughly criticized. I wasn't around then, and maybe some older comrades can shed some light, but I can't imagine anything so brutish and downright anti-dialectical as Iron Felix's crap ever coming from the RCP. His view is rooted in a view of socialism as an iron-hand moralism being imposed by strongmen. The RCP's was about unleashing the people to become the masters of society, and working to uproot oppression. They thought that male homesexuality in particular concentrated forms of anti-women sentiments and "male right" and criticized it, even to the point of wanting to "reform homosexuals". In my opinion, they were way the hell off on that one. Big time. And take this for what it's worth--it's purely anecdotal--but none of the older RCP comrades I've ever met who were around at the time that the party upheld that wrong line, ever expressed any kind of intolerance of gay people, and certainly nothing resembling Iron Felix's bullshit. If they did I wouldn't have gone anywhere near them. In fact I've found very much the opposite--lots of warm, comradely relationships with all kinds of people. And a lot of affection from all kinds of people for these comrades. So I have to ask, what's your point? That anyone who was ever wrong about something should never be allowed to have an opinion about it in the future? That people can't change? What sort of program for the future is that? Imagine if the RCP took that sort of an attitude! You say you "are not trying to discourage" the RCP moving away from its old line--so then why are you trying to turn a thread about an out-and-out fascist masquerading as a communist into an uninformed comparison of Iron Feliks' current thoroughly fascist line with the RCP's old, incorrect line that it has thoroughly and publically self-criticized? What do you want to see happen here? Do you want to make the RCP hang its head in shame, or do you want to clear the way for a revolution?
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Post by whatever on May 2, 2005 13:28:23 GMT -5
Those links don't work. I'll try them again later.
You're presuming a lot of things about what I have and have not investigated. You know what I'm not going to get into pitting anecdotes against anecdotes. If what you're saying is true then that just means the RCP's practice was different from its line. Saying the RCP secretly had another practice is an evasion not really dealing with the line. It even makes the old position look less harmful than it was.
What I say stands: there is no fundamental difference between IronFelix and the RCP before 2001 on homosexuality, and nothing said here disproves that. IronFelix's "brutishness" marks his views as a whole. Where it's his views on gays it's just a tactical difference with the RCP.
You asked what's my point. The point is that what the RCP was calling line struggle a few years ago is now simply called bigotry without any real thorough-going break with the old position and the RCP has never said its old position was bigoted. "not our guest" says "And the issue with Iron Felix is not this or that issue (there are many views on this site regarding sexuality, as you can see in those threads.)" This implies IronFelix's views on gays may be considered line struggle in other circumstances, IronFelix's views on gays are bigoted only because he is fascist. If some RCP supporter here started defending the old RCP position on homosexuality that would be looked on as line struggle not bigotry and you know that.
Your kind of thinking does not clear the way for revolution. What it does clear the way for is discouraging struggle with reactionary lines. You can say let's not get stuck on this or that issue, just focus on the big picture of IronFelix's views, but the truth is the different pieces of IronFelix's views are found in some RCP supporters. It is only when they all come together in IronFelix that they are bigoted. Individually they aren't bigoted is what the suggestion is.
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Post by MundoQueGanar on May 2, 2005 14:48:23 GMT -5
Again, all you're bringing up is what the RCP's line used to be.
I think that it is very important that the line is NOT that anymore.
But you still seem to want to punish the RCP for once having had an incorrect line. Or you want someone to defend the old line. Or to "prove" that the RCP was, once upon a time, no different from this knuckle-dragging fascist called Iron Felix. Why?
What about what the RCP's line is now? If you have anything to say about that, I think it would be useful to start a thread about it. Because the party's CURRENT line and practice, I hope we can agree, is much more important than anything it did in the past.
Unless you think that because the RCP was once wrong about homesexuality, that they are forever tainted and incapable of opposing the oppression of people who are not heterosexual--or that it makes them hypocrites to do so. If that's what you think, then, well...that's pretty depressing because it means that we're going to have to wait until some perfect generation of pure-thinking revolutionaries is born, because people obviously can't change.
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Post by flyby2 on May 2, 2005 18:26:05 GMT -5
There are several things to say here:
1) I think we should move Iron Felix to the weeds section. We can continue other related issues, but I think we should resolve whether Iron Felix can be a member or not.
2) There are some lies about the RCP that i need to answer.
The RCP raised questions about whether it was male chauvinism for men to exclude women from their intimate lives and subculture. They thought that there was evidence that male homosexuality emerged as a social phenomenon from hostility toward women, that overall could not be progressive. And that it was likely to disappear in a society where the struggle against sexism advanced.
Now, they have decided (correctly, i think) that this earlier analysis was wrong, and have (in the process) deepened the Marxist analysis of sexuality.
However, it is important to say that their approach and line was never "homophobia" or "anti-gay bigotry" or any of the nonsense raised by Iron Felix.
The RCP has always supported the fight for gay equality and acceptance -- for example against discrimination in jobs and hiring. They were rather vocal in criticizing the imperialists' criminal approach to AIDS, they opposed the fascist and fundamentalist notion that AIDS was a payback for homosexuality etc. For example, the RCP marched in 1984 in the NYC marches against the Supreme Court's Hardwick decision (that upheld the state government's right to criminalize sex between concenting adult males.)
So, it has to be said that the RCP has never upheld discrimination or bigotry against gay people.
For example, various liars (among the MIM) have claimed that the RCP "handed out leaflets against gay people." This is a lie. This did not happen, and no one who alleges this can (or will) produce such "leaflets" or say where they were handed out etc.
So there is a world of difference between the RCP and Iron Felix -- in their politics. But even more:There is a world of difference between the RCP EVEN WHEN ITS LINE WAS WRONG ON THIS QUESTION and Iron Felix.
One was a communist vanguard with a wrong approach to a social question. The other is a fascist.
Big difference.
3) This site is not build on a basis of unity of the RCP or the RCP's program. this is a discussion site, a message board. It is united around the KINDS OF DISCUSSION the people here want to have. The issue with Iron felix is not that he disagrees with one aspect or another of the RCP's line. The issue is that he is a fascist.
Many people are very active in this site who are not Maoists or pro-RCP (Redstar, despite severians accusations! or sonofrage, or virginmolotov, or cym, etc.)
4) Part of the complication is that there is a current within the international communist movement that promoted a very bad approach to issues of sexuality, and this had had a large influence. The RCP picked up some of that, tried to forge a communist understanding out of it and has only relatively recently broken with that. Iron Felix did something different, he picked up on that backward current and its incorrect summations TO FUSE IT ALL TO AN OVERALL FASCIST PROGRAM AND POLITICS.
Again, that is very different.
and that is how everyone here wants it!
Anyway, this thread is an example of why we don't want to get bogged down in debating fascists. Or in "feeding the trolls"
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