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Post by Cretinist on Dec 31, 2003 1:21:23 GMT -5
Ok, fine. If Stalin was knowingly responsible for 5 million deaths, then I'll join right along with you in condemning him.
So let's get down to it. How did you arrive at the 5 million figure? How do you know Stalin was behind the order? If so, did he do so knowing it would cause millions to die? After all, he wouldn't technically be morally responsible if he knew it was likely millions would die because of some policy he promoted. Would you also blame Stalin because a policy he promoted happened to cause Kulaks to destroy millions of farm animals rather than allow their 'property' to be collectivized?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2003 1:28:34 GMT -5
The Soviet Union was exporting food to foreign markets during these famines. In fact, the exports doubled during the famine.
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Post by Cretinist on Dec 31, 2003 1:33:16 GMT -5
You didn't answer any of my questions, but I didn't really expect you to...
I'm interested in reading further about your claims. Some references would be nice.
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Post by readpunk on Dec 31, 2003 2:13:11 GMT -5
Get off of my forum if your gonna post this capitalistic bullshit.Stalin lived a simple life,in a decent house,with one maid and no one else.Sometimes he slept on couches in the Kremlin.
-SR
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2003 3:30:22 GMT -5
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Post by eat the diff on Dec 31, 2003 12:02:06 GMT -5
i don't see much luxury in your picture.
These are two men sitting in a garden working.
You imagine that there weren't and arent, hundreds of thousands of gardens across russia in the summer time?
You think in Stalin's village in Georgia, men didn't sit in their gardens and drink coffee and talk?
As the head of a government (with intense security concerns, virtually no time, etc.) i think stalin did not live like the "average worker" -- but i think that is a necessity of the struggle for a world of egalitarianism.
And the irony of that, the contradictoryness, is deliberate: this is a process of pulling new ways out of old ways.
Let me give you an example: on the long march, mao rode a horse. and the wounded also rode horses sometimes. And a struggle was raised that this was unequal. (This struggle is mentioned by mao in his writings). Was it unequal? of course. Was it wrong? no.
After all Mao had to plan the next days battles all night. And the survival of everyone depended on him being clear thinking and rested. Was that equal? no, that burden of responsibility of work isn't equal either.
And you can't just DECLARE an absolute equality. Or decide "our army isn't going to have leaders" -- cuz you'll lose. and quick.
Do you think the workers of the Soviet Union, who knew Stalin was making plans to face 3.4 million nazi troops wanted him to do his own laundry and shopping? Or do you think they wanted him to go over the plans one more time?
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Post by Comrade Joseph on Dec 31, 2003 14:09:20 GMT -5
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Post by Cretinist on Jan 2, 2004 1:55:19 GMT -5
Again, you have given me nothing that I have asked for. Please read Lies Concerning the history of the Soviet Union, and get back to me on what sort of stuff I'm looking for. And I'm not looking for secondary sources either.
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Post by StalinRevolution on Jan 2, 2004 2:03:42 GMT -5
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/7213/sov-hol.htmlHmmm,that famine right?Please read that article,originally published in Village Voice.Maybe he exported food because there wasn't a famine going on.And maybe also,*shocking* because he wanted to help other nations.Though there is something I would like to ask some of you guys here.I was reading something and became a bit dissillusioned with Stalin.It was about how in the 30's and 40's he aparently liquidtaed a lot of a.veterans from the spanish civil war b.according to a lot of sources basicly a ton of members from foreign communist parties,whos leaders and members were fleeing to the ussr from their respective oppressive governments.such communsit parties are hungarian,romanian,german,korean,and most of all poland.I heard a claim that the NKVD whiped out many of the members of that polish communist party.same with the romanian one.please don't just tell me these are "bouregoise lies".I believe many things on Stalin are,but please tell me what you think of this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2004 2:11:43 GMT -5
You say you don't want secondary sources yet you expect me to accept an article that is exactly that.
From skimming that article, the rebuttles seem to fall into two categories:
1. The anti-Stalinists are lying. 2. The people who died were counter-revolutionaries anyway.
Hardly convincing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2004 2:18:35 GMT -5
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Post by Cretinist on Jan 2, 2004 2:43:17 GMT -5
Where's the documents ordering the mass starvation of Ukraine? Does the fact that the claim is intimately tied up with Nazis and Ukrainian nationalists mean nothing to you?
Dr. Roman Serbyn no where deals with the issue of the fascist origins of these claims, nor does he in anyway substantiate that it was ordered by the Bolsheviks. Little more is given than some incredibly fake sounding quotes like this:
"It was late fall of 1932. They came, as usually, unexpected: two men from the collective and an "activist" from the city. They poked iron-tipped rods into the ground in the yard and the garden looking for buried grain. Finding nothing, since there was nothing left, they entered the house as the family sat down to a dinner of potatoes - the only food left. Cursing, they took all the potatoes from the house, even the cooked ones from the table, and carried them to the cart outside. Then they started looking for hidden food in the house. They found none. As they were about to leave, the "activist" noticed that the three-year-old daughter, clinging to her mother's skirts, clutched in her hand a potato from dinner. The "activist" grabbed this last piece of food from the child's hand, threw it to the ground and crushed it with his boot" ("Literaturna Ukraina" (Kiev) 1988, No.45)
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Post by eat the world on Jan 2, 2004 9:25:59 GMT -5
thee points:
1) The collectivization in the ukraine was an attempt to increase the flow of food to cities for industrialization, and an attempt to press forward the socialist revolutin in land ownership. It makes no sense that Stalin would have wanted to "cause a famine" since he entered the project to incrase food production.
In the collectivization, there were areas of sharp resistance (especially the very conservative areas ofwestern ukraine.) In those areas this resistance included the mass slaughter of animals slated to be collectivized and a refusal to work in collective situations. There were food shortages, but they were not caused by Stalin and the communists (and CERTAINLY not deliberately). They were caused by the opponents of stalin and the communists.
2) On the very method of "stalin killed xxx million." If you read the anticommunist texts, these numbers are invented. They often take the deaths of (say) a civil war, or a major struggle, and then blame the leading communist leader of "causing" these deaths. And then, the next persno reporting the account, says the communist leader "killed" these people, and so on.
It is a false method. Some examples: Stalin and the communists DID unleash collectivization. And collectivization was a complex struggle in which anticommunists undermined the food supply. But that doesn't mean that Stalin "caused" the famine OR that "Stalin killed" anyone who died of hunger in that period.
Similarly, though Pol Pot was not actually a communist, the method is used on cambodia. When the Khemer Rouge came to power, the U.S> had bombed this tiny country more thanany place in history, destroying agriculture (every mill, every bridge, every road, lots of farm animals). The CIA said (itself) that estimates were that a million would die of hunger in the disruption. And there were massive famines caused by the war and bombing.
The NYT writes carefully "a million died under Pol Pot" -- which is repeated as Pol Pot killed a million people in autogenocide. In fact, the political deaths under pol pot were concentrated in one particular purge of pro-vietnamese forces iwthin his own party, and tens of thousands were executed, in what amounted to a two-sided civil war for power (that ended in a Vietnamese invasion.) And the figures of "Pol pot killed a million" are absurd, unfactual, and unsubstantiated.
3) It is not true that Stalin only targeted counterrevolutinaries. It is well known and well documented that STalin widened the targetting -- confusing antagonistic and non-antagonistic contradictions -- and unleashed campaigns were work errors were described as spy sabotage etc.
It is one of the criticism's that genuine communists have of Stalin.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2004 18:00:56 GMT -5
Get off of my forum if your gonna post this capitalistic bullshit.Stalin lived a simple life,in a decent house,with one maid and no one else.Sometimes he slept on couches in the Kremlin.
-SR
I must say, I find this censorship most distasteful.
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Post by eat da void on Jan 2, 2004 18:45:40 GMT -5
don't worry. No one here will allow that kind of censorship.
And we all love and admire SR.... but he is also 14, and so a little impetuous. No disrespect intended, on the contrary, it just means we have to give him space to learn.
ok?
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