fighting fascism--on message boards

[Che y Marijuana]

Ah! It's because there's no spaces in my login name!

Ok, so now I'm back. So yeah, what do you guys think?

[flyby2]

let me throw in some thoughts cym.

first: its great to see you here. welcome!

Second: One of the confusing but indesputable facts of our epoch is that the language of "marxism" can be (and is) used to justify just about any class outlook or movement in the world.

there have been fascists who call themselves "marxists" (as the "red-brown" movements of Russia show today)

there are feudo-monarchists who call themselves "marxists" (as the pathetic Juchist current in Korea shows),

there are reformists who call themselves "marxists."

Corporate capitalists who mascaread as Marxists (see china today)

military dictators (as in Mengisku's Ethiopia) and so on.

and so on.

any class force, any political movement, any idea can present itself in pseudo-Marxist language and coloration.

And that confirms Marx's own point: you can't judge people by what they CALL themselves, you have to look at them objectively, in context, and decide what they actually ARE.

A Marxist is not defined as "someone who calls themselves a Marxist."

A communist is not "anyone who chooses the label communist."

And there are whole political spectrums of people who "call themselves communist" but who (objectively) are not truly communist.

These are forces that genuine communists call "revisionists."

And there have been times where a third of humanity was under one kind of revisionist government or another... which is one of the more confusing aspects of our epoch (that many of the most visible and influential "communist" forces have not been communist, or left, or anti-capitalist at all.)

But we don't choose the world we live in. And so we, and the masses of people, have to learn how to distinguish "genuine marxism from sham marxism."

Maoists in china used to say "Beware you don't board a pirate ship" (In the old days pirates would fly friendly flags, and then when you boarded would reveal what they really were.)

So what do i think of debating fascists (including fascists and racists and anti-semites and anti-woman creeps who disguise themselves as "communists")?

Well, I don't think we should waste our time trying to focus on winning THEM over. And I don't think the fact that they say "marxism, or ML, or communist" means that they are more open to real communism than other fascist types.

These are forces who think ordinary people should be bullied and smacked around by a big oppressive state, who don't have a hint of love for social change, who think women are weak and need to be dominated, or who hate gay people in rather common and bigoted ways, who like blind obedience instead of rebellion and critical thinking, who think that some central aparatus can make all of life's decisions, and all the people need is food and security and promises.

Communism is not about material goods plus security (though red skyscraper thinks so). It is about liberating the world. and changing the way humans relate to each other.

Obviously abolishing poverty and war and the drudgery of everyday life is part of that.....

but reducing communism to a welfare state with a harsh billy club -- is really not different from Hitler's National Socialism (which was not socialism at all! but a barracks preparation for world war and genocide!)

I also think we should gather the more interesting radical posters here at awip. and work together to spread things on the internet.

Not limit ourselves to just "discussion" but also start thinking of some common projects to do online together.

But personally, I'm glad we don't have dogmato-revisionists in large numbers here. We had some, but their discussions were very dreary, and they really made it hard to talk about things in any way that was real.

anyway.... that is some of my thoughts.

I think it is good to call out Iron Felix and others like him for their crudely reactionary and (really) quasi-fascist ideas. There is really nothing even faintly progressive about them (or their whole take on things).

I wouldn't want to live in a world that their ideas controlled. It wouldn't be much different than Iraq under Bush.

[1949]

But do you agree, Flyby, with CyM's tactics of trying to force the administrators at E-G to de-mod the various people like Iron Feliks? That's primarily what CyM and I were debating in this exchange.

And I'd also like to point out that not all of the dogmato-revisionists are like these fascist types. For example, Tarasi (the owner of E-G) has denounced their (the fascist types') anti-Semitism; Tragic has spoken out against sexism and homophobia; and jjack and Ymir/Brennus have criticized the MIMesque views on the workers in imperialist countries. Hell, even Red Skyscraper denounced the absurd idea held by Iron Feliks, Berserk and Sensitive that fascism is more progressive than bourgeois democracy (though he (RS) still supports forces like the Iranian mullahs and Russia's NBP which he doesn't consider fascist (even though they are)).

And can you, Flyby, please elaborate on what you mean when you say the discussions with dogmato-revisionists here at AWIP "were very dreary, and they really made it hard to talk about things in any way that was real"?

I'll reply to some of CyM's points later--I have to go soon.

[Tarasi]

And I'd also like to point out that not all of the dogmato-revisionists are like these fascist types.

What is the objective of this slander directed towards me?

[flyby2]

hmmmm.

1949 wrote: "But do you agree, Flyby, with CyM's tactics of trying to force the administrators at E-G to de-mod the various people like Iron Feliks? That's primarily what CyM and I were debating in this exchange."

I think it is very important to expose revisionism wherever it has influence.

By that I mean "phony communism" -- bourgeois politics that mascarades as socialist politics.

One of the key things we need to sharpen and promote is the ability of revolutionary folks (and the masses of people) to differentiate between revolutonary politics and reactionary politics.

And this is complicated by the fact that reactionary politics often comes disguised (for many historical and political reasons) as "democracy" or "liberatoin" or "communism."

So a public debate, and exposre of people like Iron Felix, or Juche, or other forms of dogmato-revisionism... are all useful -- especially if there are people who are influenced and confused about these issues.

I don't want to comment on who shold be a member of E-G and who shouldn't. I am not part of that board... and really think it should be fought out there, by people deciding where they want their discussion and community to go. But i do think it is valuable to expose revisionism relentlessly. And certainly Iron Felix is a rank reactionary, sexist, and barely-hidden fascist who thinks the people should be battered and bullied by a strong and ruthless state.

Who wants to live in a society like that?
Who can believe that is related to any kind of liberation?

And if that is exposed among the people of E-G then good. and if C-M wants everyone to take a stand in public on these issues, i think that is good too. A clear line of demarcation should be drawn between revolutoin and reaction -- and people should be helped to take a stand on the correct side.

As you said correctly, there is a general tendency on E-G to have a very mechanical and backward looking and dogmatic view of marxism and social change. There are different people and currents on that group, of course, but there are very close connections (in my opinion) between the various revisionist trends.

For example, Red Skyscraper often says that the key thing about socialism is that it provides security and material goods.... this view is a view of socialism as some benign welfare state... and views the masses not as masters of the future, and as combatants in a historic and liberating struggle to change the world (and themselves) -- but as passive victims who need help, and protection, and a plate of food regularly.

This kind of welfare state is really no different from taking Sweden as a model, and has nothing in common with what I would consider socialism.

Clearly as you point out below, Iron Felix is particularly raw.... but frankly exposing antisemitism is relatively easy, (or it should be). Or his rank bigotry toward gay people (which is directly related to his blatent macho male supremacy toward women!)

These things are pretty "out there" -- and in some ways, i think the more complex and important struggle is to dig in, (in a helpful and open way) to expose what is wrong with the approach and vision that inspires someone like Red Skyscraper or Sensitive (who i have found interesting to talk to in the past, but who has consolidated his support for revisionism over the last few years.)


1949 wrote: "And can you, Flyby, please elaborate on what you mean when you say the discussions with dogmato-revisionists here at AWIP "were very dreary, and they really made it hard to talk about things in any way that was real"?"

Well, we were involved in protracted discussions and debates with these folks....

But really dogmatists are lazy bones (as mao said) -- they don't really deal with the challenges of the world, and offer tired formulas to complex questions. And they drag any discussion into a rehashing of religious texts and past situations.

Really you can't figure out how to make revolution in the U.S. mainly by copying from some old comintern resolution -- because NO ONE before Bob Avakian and the RCP really tackled this problem of making revolution in the imperialist countries. At best they tried to build trade unions and conduct a little "socialist propaganda" on the side.

After a while they left (awip and other places) and frankly it was a bit of a relief. Having ixabert on the site is like hanging a twenty pound weight on a kite -- any discussion that started to soar and get into real issues of life and revolution was suddenly brought crashing into the mud, by some stubborn (and rather dreary) dogmatism.

I don't mind revisiting some key discussions with such forces..... but really, it is not where I want to be.

But let me end with this point:

I have a criticism of the most revolutionary people i know on the internet and on awip. They greatly overestimate the importance of trying to win over dogmato-revisionists to communism. And they like to be in conversations were "everyone is a communist" and then focus on "which communism is the correct one."

And frankly, the most advanced people, the ones who have the most potential for being revolutonary communists, are generally NOT running around talking about Juche. (Anyone who likes Juche has some basic hostility to people and liberation -- from jump street.)

I'm not saying they are simply reactionaries -- i'm saying that it is important to bring our communist politics, ideology and our main man out much much more broadly -- to millions of people wh oare awakening to political life. We need to break out of the little puddles of cyclical debates over stalin -- and get into the deep end of the pool, where the masses are -- and where there are literally tens of thousands of radical students and others looking for revolutionary answers.

We need to be out talking to all kinds of interesting and active people -- not sitting in a little hot-tub talking to tired and rather consolidated dogmatists (whose whole world outlook makes them afraid of real revolution and of the masses.)

you know what i'm saying?

I'll reply to some of CyM's points later--I have to go soon.

[IronFeliks]

A summary of my ideas:

1) I am a Marxist-Leninist/Maoist.

2) I support all national liberation movements that struggle against the yankees.

3) I am a feminist

4) I am an anti-imperialist

5) Revolution amongst Anglo-whites is impossible in the United States and Western Europe until the third world it rips off profit-wise rises up against it. Revolution amongst the Latino and Black proletariat communities are the best we can hope for, and key to weakening the white and Jewish bourgeois' class stranglehold on the oppressed world.

6) I agree with Karl Marx's thesis on Judaism and believe the Jewish leaders have hijacked formerly christian institutions, and have implemented a racial caste against non-white jews. I believe Jews and Christian capitalists are the driving force behind todays capitalism and imperialism.

The reason for Jews joining radical movements is their wish to get the same privileges christian reactionaries had before them, hence why we must struggle against them.

7) I believe as the communist movement has believed starting with Karl Marx: Homosexuality is an incorrect and unMarxist, undialectical practice, a bourgeois tool to disrupt society.

8) I believe patriotism and nationalism are absolutely necessary to establish socialism .

[redstar2000GUEST]

Iron Felix wrote:

6) I agree with Karl Marx's thesis on Judaism and believe the Jewish leaders have hijacked formerly Christian institutions, and have implemented a racial caste against non-white jews. I believe Jews and Christian capitalists are the driving force behind today's capitalism and imperialism.

The reason for Jews joining radical movements is their wish to get the same privileges Christian reactionaries had before them, hence why we must struggle against them.

7) I believe as the communist movement has believed starting with Karl Marx: Homosexuality is an incorrect and unMarxist, undialectical practice, a bourgeois tool to disrupt society.

8) I believe patriotism and nationalism are absolutely necessary to establish socialism.

Points six and seven would get you summarily banned from the RevLeft board, of course...here, I don't know.

Point eight is simply a-historical; patriotism/nationalism in the advanced capitalist countries is fundamentally reactionary and has been for a long time.

You sound like a "National Bolshevik" -- a fascist -- and I would be quite shocked if you found anyone here who would support your views.

In any revolutionary situation, I strongly suspect someone like you would stand an excellent chance of simply being shot.

That's how I would vote, anyway.



New URL: The Redstar2000 Papers

Revolutionary Left Forums

[VirginMolotov]

Points three and seven are simply contridictory. There will be no meaningful gender liberation without complete sexual liberation and freedom to define one's sexuality as they see fit.
I'd like to hear yr take on "femminism". A more authenticly female subjegation?

[IronFeliks]

Points six and seven would get you summarily banned from the RevLeft board, of course...here, I don't know.

I have done nothing to warrant my banning ,except for support the views of Karl Marx and his scientific conclusions.

Point eight is simply a-historical; patriotism/nationalism in the advanced capitalist countries is fundamentally reactionary and has been for a long time.

I am strongly against patriotism in the first world unless it is black/minority successionism/nationalism. First world nationalism always serves the bourgeoisie because the first world is made up of the white and Jewish bourgeoisie

You sound like a "National Bolshevik" -- a fascist -- and I would be quite shocked if you found anyone here who would support your views.

I am not a national bolshevik and believe their ends are very reactionary, however I do support a popular front with themh against Yankee imperialism.

I am not fascist or Nasbol, so stop making shit up because I've never admitted to being either.

In any revolutionary situation, I strongly suspect someone like you would stand an excellent chance of simply being shot.

That is because you are an anarchist, probably a Westerner or of Jewish upbringing since those are the only places where someone like me would be shot or even disagreed with .

[flyby2]

the "jew baiting" in that last post is really beyond what we tolerate here.

accusing redstar of being "of jewish upbringing" etc. for disagreeing with his views....

this vile racism is outside the bounds.

moderators: can we please remove him and his posts.

[Che y Marijuana]

Sigh, you're probably right flyby.

But it doesn't matter, I've just been banned today

I don't think IF's posts should be deleted, since that would just make replies to them incoherent, but he should definitely be banned.

[IronFeliks]

Guest-flyby2 said:

the "jew baiting" in that last post is really beyond what we tolerate here.

accusing redstar of being "of jewish upbringing" etc. for disagreeing with his views....

this vile racism is outside the bounds.

moderators: can we please remove him and his posts.

Redstar didn't just "disagree" with my views, he wants me shot. The only people who I've met that want me shot for my views are white anglo-christian fascists and Jews.

[RedSkyscraper]

All right, it's time for me to respond to this childish nonsense being directed against ComradeChe/Ernesto-Guevara and its members.

Flyby, you're wrong about me and what I think. I don't think of socialism as a welfare state but as the step between capitalism and communism. I don't think of the masses as weak but I do think they're easily fooled by childish dogmatism and revisionism, like what has been expressed by RCP and MIM, Trotskyite and Anarchist circles, who all are capitalist liberals in hiding.

Redstar2000, you're also wrong, you're too dogmatic and not paying attention to historical fact and reality, and you're disillusioned if you think you'll really make a difference in Marxist thought, old man.

Che y Marijuana, you have been banned for good reason. You slandered E-G for the last time. You will never be welcome there ever again, like I said before on Che-Libs. Your buddy Malte decided it was in his best interests to purge the place and ban everyone he disagreed with once again, proving once again the hypocrisy of Che-Libs. In the end your claims that Che-Libs defended "Stalinists" were all rhetoric and lies. If you had cooperated, if you had stopped making fun of us and slandering us, then nothing would have happened. But because you opposed us, because you kept slandering our board and doing everything in your power to stop the growth of E-G, you will stay gone and you shall enjoy permanent exile, whether you like it or not.

And as for the member known as "1949":

Mr. Judas Brutus, you are a traitor, a hypocrite, a liberal capitalist apologist in hiding. You have betrayed E-G by plotting and conspiring against us. I am disgusted with you, especially after you asked for me to be banned from Che-Libs, and called me RedSkkkyscraper in your little Commie Club with CyM (in response, you shall now be referred to as Judas Brutus from henceforth because of the way you betrayed me and then stabbed me in the back). I disagreed with you, but I never made it personal. You turned theoretical debates into personal fights. If that's how you want to play, so be it. Your childishness is quite revealing, and very despicable, whatever friendship we had if there was one is forever untied, gusano.

[flyby2]

Redskyscraper:

You have posted in detail your view that the main thing about socialism is security and stable income and more material goods.

If i took the time i could plow through your E-G posts and find it. But i'm sure I don't need to, cuz you certainly remember these views -- since you hold them.

And anyone plowing through E-G can see your extensive attacks on Jews. Which, in my opinion, is an important problem in its own right.

And, in the Soviet Union, there are forces who call for a return to the Soviet empire, and military superpower ambitions -- they are extreme reactionaries and social-imperialists even though (for historical reasons) they claim to be "communists" or "bolsheviks." They want a state hammer on the head of the people, a domination of the Russian nation over others, etc.

And this rise of "red brown" politics has given some wind to similar views in other places. This is not socialism or communism at all -- it is quite fascist, imperialist and chauvinist.

We just don't agree on these things. And I'm glad that there is a separate message board E-G where people with these views gather, and where people can go struggle with you over these reactoinary views.

And, as I said, my personal view is that this message board has too much other important stuff to dig into to waste time on this particular (and particularly noxious and tired) kind of revisionism.

Communism must not be a "residue of the past" -- it must be a "vanguard for the future." We are about looking about the communist history with a critical eye, not with an approach that romanticizes and justifies every error and wrong course.

[Andrei_X]

Here's a big problem I have at the Soviet-Empire.com forums: the question of Russia as an imperialist nation. Many people there feel that Russians are an oppressed nation that have been dominated by imperialism since 1991. Here are some good examples:

* www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=34537

We must stop think about socialism now! We must think about saving Russia and Belarus from becoming a US puppets!!! Otherwise there will be no place on Earth where socialism could emerge again! But why can we do it???

My advice is simple: Russia has to become an official guarantor of Belarussian independence! In other words Russia should react militarly if US mercenaries try to overthrow Lukashenko's regime! It means Russia should send its troops to Belarus in order to crush pro-western rebellion if Lukashenko's riot police couldn't do it alone!

Of course if US try to intervene Russia should immediately use nuclear blackmail to deter Yankies! And Russia shouldn't frighten US only verbally (as it was during Kosovo war) but she must make a decisive steps to warn US: "Do not make stupid things because you will pay a horrendous price!". It means for example: deploying Russian mobile ICBMs in the field, nuclear submarines at sea, strategic bombers on the Siberian airfields and arming Russian ships, aircrafts and land army units with tactical nuclear weapons now stored in central depots!

Russia must simply repeat Cuban Missile Crisis!!! None other solution won't be effective against insolent American bastards!!! They must fell a real danger and especially all stupid American rabble who think they are always intangible!!!

Okay, so that's a pretty extreme example, and not exactly someone we would probably be able to win over, but it IS obviously influencing even some of the advanced and progressive forces on this board.... take for example the "Do You Support NBP?" poll here:

* www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=33983

In this thread, there is typical NazBol bullshit going on, but what worries me is that it is influencing progressive and even very revolutionary comrades like GTctygeht. Take for example some of GTctygeht's posts:

I don't agree with them on a number of points, but overall I think they are a positive force in Russia.

I'm not familiar with who the NBP sides with, so I won't address your point about their working with the Northern Alliance and other such groups. But I will argue this:
Russia has a great deal of stock in the eastern bloc countries, in the form of Russian citizens living there, infrastructure such as power plants, and other significant ties. It's not surprising, or even unfair, that they want to exercise a little leverage on those countries to protect Russian citizens and Russian interests...

...I'd say this is a thing of the past (even then, I believe it was limited). Currently the official policy of the Russian Federation is that "ethnic affiliation is a personal matter." Their papers and IDs now only say Russian instead of being broken down by ethnicity. It would be rather difficult to oppress a group of people that are no longer readily identifiable.

There is also this idea that Fascists out-of-power can be united with and be manipulated against the government, and supposedly these S-E people cite that the Bolsheviks would work with the "Black Hundreds", an extreme right-wing group in early Russia: www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=33860&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Anyone know how I can approach these issues?