How do we get free?

[Question]

The strange thing about being a woman -- is that the system fucks us, but also often our own "brothers" who are right next to us.

How do we struggle with our "brothers" without making them the enemy?

How do we change the fucked up sexual relations if we don't struggle hard with men?

How will overthrowing the system change these sexual relations? Isn't that something we have to fight through one-on-one?

How do you make some one listen when they don't think it is important?

[RosaRL]

How do we struggle with our "brothers" without making them the enemy?

I think that part of how to do this is actually by starting off not assuming or treating them like they simply cannot learn - to not treat them as guilty and hopeless before the discussion ever starts. There is an idea that is put out there in society that people start off as 'bad' and that the only way that they will be 'good' is through some kind of force or coercion.

On the other side of that, there is the whole notion that men are biologically pre-destined to be sexist assholes -- which is not true at all. (boys will be boys - they say) If you buy into all this on any level, then you just start out from being defeated (and defensive)-- you have assumed you cant win them over at all.

A problem that I do see is the tendency for individuals to take any criticism very personally. To immediately become offended that someone raised something about their behavior. I think some of this may come from how this society constantly sends both men and women the message that at some very deep level we are all dark twisted creatures. Even more so for those that come from among the oppressed -- where we are constantly blamed for our 'failures'-- blamed for being poor, out of work or even physically ill.

So what I am saying is that part of being able to struggle with people over these issues is also being able to listen and understand what their experiences are and where they are coming from -- to have that patience to walk through the issue with them as a brother rather than feeling that a few knocks on the noggin is going to solve things. It wont -- force is not the answer and it may very well make them afraid to speak to you instead.

How do we change the fucked up sexual relations if we don't struggle hard with men?

We have to both struggle hard with men, we have to build friendships with them in which we can struggle over these issues. But just struggling with men over these issues will not get us free -- its part of it. In fact for us to get free we will have to have a revolution -- because as it is now the very structure of society reinforces sexism and as long as that exists we continue to fight against that whole weight.

How will overthrowing the system change these sexual relations? Isn't that something we have to fight through one-on-one?

Revolution itself will clear away all the dead weight of the system that we have to constantly fight against and make way for sexual relations to be presented within society in a different light as well. It would no longer be necessary for many women to live in relationships just to survive -- or to carry the whole burden of childcare. So women would no longer be bound the way that they are today. It will also be possible and necessary to wage mass struggles in society around these issues.

I think that one-on-one is very ineffective -- especially if you are saying like the wife struggles with the husband and its no one else's business -- just her job alone. I dont see it as a one-on-one thing and I think that struggle over these issues should be more collective. I dont think there is anything that should be 'private'.

How do you make some one listen when they don't think it is important?

you got me there! at least in this society. In socialist society when you are having mass debates around issues and radical change, i think it would be fairly hard to just ignore it -- although some probably will fight doggedly against the liberation of women.

[redstar2000]

I would suggest that there are different "arenas" of struggle...and that different tactics are appropriate for different arenas.

On message boards, for example, I'm pretty "hard-line" and "confrontational". These are places where "left" ideas are supposed to be subject to critical examination.

If someone expresses an openly misogynist or homophobic opinion--or even implies such an opinion--I'm usually "on them" like the proverbial ton of bricks.

In a one-on-one intimate relationship, on the other hand, a "gentler" form of struggle might be more appropriate...unless his behavior is intolerable--in which case, you should leave at once and never look back!

If it can be arranged, it might be helpful to have a group of your women friends confront him about his behavior--perhaps he might learn from them what he won't or can't learn from you.

If you are in a political group that thinks "women's issues" are "trivial", you have a real problem. What radical women have traditionally done in this situation is organize a "women's caucus" or "faction" within the group and then demand that women's concerns be taken seriously or else!

Or else what? We walk!

Or even further: we take over! There was a situation in an underground newspaper in New York City (back in the late 1960s) where the women on the paper just seized it from the guys and ran it themselves.

I have to admit that I am "biased" in favor of confrontation. It seems to me that a "brother" who "fucks you over" is not really a brother at all--regardless of the fact that's he memorized the Communist Manifesto and even regardless of the fact that he's memorized a lot of feminist rhetoric.

For Marx and Engels, social behavior was the real key to understanding...not what rhetorical garments someone happened to be wearing at the time.

If some particular guy behaves like a patriarch towards women, then his real allegiance is to patriarchy...no matter what he might claim to the contrary.

If some political group treats women as if they were an "add on" to the revolutionary process--nice to have but not really all that important--then you cannot avoid the conclusion that they will do little or nothing on behalf of women ever.

I know it's a crude measure, but I always suggest that people should look at "mixed groups" and actually see if women are proportionately represented at all levels of the organization.

If they're not, you may assume the worst.#nosmileys

[RosaRL]

If some political group treats women as if they were an "add on" to the revolutionary process--nice to have but not really all that important--then you cannot avoid the conclusion that they will do little or nothing on behalf of women ever.

The sentiment here is one that I agree with. Its very important to not just look at what groups say, but rather what they actually do in practice. Women should never be left with the feeling that they are an 'afterthought' -- perhpas something to be dealt with 'after the revolution' -- or so on.

I know it's a crude measure, but I always suggest that people should look at "mixed groups" and actually see if women are proportionately represented at all levels of the organization.

You are correct that this is a crude measure - I think its also a wrong one.

It is important to look at groups (and individuals) by the political line that they carry out. Does this 'proportional representation' the ideology and outlook of the proletariat?

By 'proportionally' it seems that you feel women should be promoted to positions of leadership within an organization on the basis that they are women. It’s actually identity politics and not revolutionary politics to judge people on the shallow basis of gender or nationality vs. what they stand for. It assumes that the oppressed can only follow someone that is a carbon-copy of themselves. We have to start from 'how do we get free?' and this is not going to get us free.

However if you take up the ideology and outlook of the proletariat then, the nationality or gender of those in leadership positions is not the question you’re concerned with. You are concerned about the line and the quality of their leadership. Once you make the leap to looking at the world from the standpoint of the international proletariat, that’s the criterion by which you weigh everything – what needs to be done and how to meet the tremendous challenges. You judge everything from the standpoint of what is in the fundamental and highest interest of the masses all over the world. The people are oppressed and need to be liberated by taking up this ideology and line.

[roman meal]

I believe women need to be represented as much as possible especially in leadership positions of the revolutionary movement. I don't think it's okay to have all white or male leadership as long as they "have the right line". It sounds good to say "gender doesn't matter, so long as line is correct" - but in the real world this isn't true.

Our movement will never be one where we each are fully conscious perfect machines who carry out the correct line. We are influenced in all kinds of unconscious ways by who we live with, surround ourselves with, and who we see in our leadership positions.

Even if your line is correct, do you think you are going to make much inway into say the black or mexican nation if your organization and especially leadership is mostly white? It is the same way with women, unless women SEE other women in leadership positions, you just aren't going to be taken seriously by those who are most oppressed.

The first reaction is always "we've seen this show before.. another bunch of know it all white males speaking for us.."

I always wondered, and I am not trying to take a cheap dig here, if the RCP's current programme (not draft) would have had the "homosexuality will be eliminated" language in it had there been more LGBT voices in the process of its drafting. Regardless if the langauge of the programme could be interpreted to be less offensive than it was, the fact is that it was not stated well and did alienate many from the RCP. To the RCP's credit, they seem to have been somewhat self criticial on this on 2changetheworld, although I don't think they have ever fully come clean about it. (I have no deep knowledge of the actually composition of the RCP - I am just working from my limited impressions)..

My point is that these kinds of OOPS! can be avoided when the leadership and organization are diverse and bring all kinds of life experience to the table. Anyways, just an opinion.

I see white supremacy and patriachy as major problems within the so called revolutionary movement.

I think we should make a point of having POC and women leadership. And I don't mean tokenism..

in struggle,
roman

[redstar2000]

RosaRL wrote: By 'proportionally' it seems that you feel women should be promoted to positions of leadership within an organization on the basis that they are women. It’s actually identity politics and not revolutionary politics to judge people on the shallow basis of gender or nationality vs. what they stand for.

Consider a political group consisting of 90 males and 10 females (a fairly typical situation, in my experience).

This group decides it needs an "executive committee" to handle day-to-day decision-making since it's awkward to get all 100 people to a meeting more than once a month.

I would expect that one of those 10 women would be "qualified" to sit on that executive committee...and perhaps two.

If there are none at all, what conclusions are possible? (1) The political education of women in that group has little urgency...so even when women join it, they remain "backward" and "unqualified"; (2) Those guys simply won't vote for a woman, regardless of how qualified she might be; (3) Election of a woman might be perceived as a concession to "identity politics" and therefore no women can be elected; (4) Those guys perceive that women are "not really serious" about politics the way men "are"; (5) etc., etc., etc.

You would have to know a lot about the group and its politics to know which of those explanations predominated...but all of them seem to me to be "bad" ones.

Consider a different group with the same composition; but their "executive committee" is half male and half female. What's going on? Well, they rigged their voting system so that the top female candidates were "automatically" elected. Why would they want to do something like that?

Perhaps they desired to present an image to the working class of a group that was really serious about female equality...and the importance of women's contribution to the revolutionary process. Perhaps they felt that even if some of their female executive committee members were "not as sharp" or "not as experienced" as some of the guys who got squeezed out, that it was more important that women should learn how to play a "leading role" in class struggle.

By itself, of course, this is just "formalism". As are "public declarations" of a "political line". It's still pretty easy for an "alpha-male" type to dominate an "executive committee" even if half the members are female. It's also pretty easy to have a program in favor of female equality while the actual practice of the group is patriarchal.

But I think these "formalities" do have their place in the revolutionary process. It's a "good thing" to (at least!) be "formally" in favor of women's liberation. It's a "good thing" to (at least!) "formally" indicate that by moving women into "leadership" roles.

Those "formalities" are not a substitute for the genuine practice of equality...but they're a pretty good sign that your group is trying to go "in the right direction".

And their absence is not "a good sign" at all. #nosmileys

[Liberal]

If someone expresses an openly misogynist or homophobic opinion--or even implies such an opinion--I'm usually "on them" like the proverbial ton of bricks.

My views aren't misogynistic or homophobic though, they'll probably fit your broad definition of those terms so, get ready to pounce.

In a one-on-one intimate relationship, on the other hand, a "gentler" form of struggle might be more appropriate...unless his behavior is intolerable--in which case, you should leave at once and never look back!

Why wouldn't you act they same way in both situations? Are you trying to sell something? If you are, you should be honest about not only your beliefs but, how strong you are about them.

If it can be arranged, it might be helpful to have a group of your women friends confront him about his behavior--perhaps he might learn from them what he won't or can't learn from you.

That moralism wouldn't work on me. I'm a man and I'm proud of it. I like sex and I like sexy women. You may think I'm a beast but, women aren't any better. Women base their mating choices on how well a man is able to provide (make money) and not on how sensitive a man is. In fact, being too sensitive can hurt a man's chances with women.

If you are in a political group that thinks "women's issues" are "trivial", you have a real problem.

I'm in a political group that thinks neither women's or men's issues are true. I support gender reconciliation. Gender Reconciliation's goal is to foster understanding between the sexes. The things you write here prove that misunderstanding exists.

What radical women have traditionally done in this situation is organize a "women's caucus" or "faction" within the group and then demand that women's concerns be taken seriously or else!

That's true. Women have fought for the right to vote and work and those were laudable (good) goals. Though, some of these same women have fought to change men into women and women into men and have not have been successful so far.

You may say it's due to a flaw in the execution of feminism though, I contend it's a flaw in the design of feminism. There is such thing as a human nature! Men an women are different from the neck up as well as the neck down.

Or else what? We walk!

Women aren't the only gender that's willing-to-walk (WTW). I wouldn't date a woman who had extreme feminist views.

Or even further: we take over! There was a situation in an underground newspaper in New York City (back in the late 1960s) where the women on the paper just seized it from the guys and ran it themselves.]

Feminists have been talking about doing things such as that for a long time and it hasn't happened and it never will. The key word you used there is Underground newspaper.

I have to admit that I am "biased" in favor of confrontation. It seems to me that a "brother" who "fucks you over" is not really a brother at all--regardless of the fact that's he memorized the Communist Manifesto and even regardless of the fact that he's memorized a lot of feminist rhetoric.

How do you get through life having such hostile feelings to wards the male gender?

I know it's a crude measure, but I always suggest that people should look at "mixed groups" and actually see if women are proportionately represented at all levels of the organization.

I don't and I won't. Just because the male-to-female ratio isn't exactly 50% doesn't mean automatically there's something fowl going on. Men and women have different interests and they also tend to be more talented than the other at certain vocations. Notice how theres a lot of waitresses and female secretaries. That's because women are typically better than men at multitasking. Being a mother required being able to multitask better and being a father didn't. Hence, women are better at multitasking and hence, they work at jobs were that is an asset.

I don't ever read a feminist complain about the fact that men are underrepresented in those two particular vocations.

If they're not, you may assume the worst.

Why? As stated above men and women are different. It's not surprising to me what-so-ever that there isn't 50% representations in every last mixed organization.

I'd like to end this post by stating that my favorite book regarding gender is Sexual Personae.

[Cocobanjo]

Things gettin' heated up a bit, eH? Always good with some opposition. 'Neway's....

This strike me, 'tho, as a interestin' thing... should Communists shun movements who are for working people generally but is a bit - or maybe even much - reactionary when it comes to wimen, or not? Both are possible choiches..but...not withouth their consequences... The first will alienate 50% of the the people it all depends upon...in ways. The second might make it a bit harder for everyone, but a little better for wimen, maybe, or atleast..that they equally get to "take the blow"?...

This assuming the choiche would have an instant and global effect, just as an example, 'tho it would be less as drastic in real-lif,e hell, an issue is an issue!

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